pilots license and multiple sclerosis -- Canada

[OldFortuneTeller]

I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying lessons
for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not being able to get
pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is PROHIBITIVE!
Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane isn't in my budget now,
but flying is really intriguing to me.

[Fred]

I had a Class III medical certificate from the FAA before I got sick.
Afterwards, I didn't even try because I knew I would be turned down.
Lessons are relatively inexpensive (compared to getting a plane and
maintaining it and storing it, etc.). If you make it clear to the
instructor that you will never solo or get your license they can take you
up just for fun (and it is). I used to say "I don't want to learn how to
fly, I just want to look around and I want to drive." CFIs are fine to take
you up for fun, but CFIIs are more qualified. With a Dx of MS, I would not
even try for a FAA medical. The thread is about Canada and I am talking
about the US. I do not know your level of disability. I doubt I could even
physically get into a small plane today. That is not to mention that I
would have to land every hour to pee. If you need hand controls to drive a
car, I doubt you could fly a plane at all. You need your feet to work the
rudder and there are no adaptive devices. There are some planes that the
yoke works the rudder automatically. If you are serious, look into those. I
forget which planes do that, but a flying school should know.

Fred.

Post by OldFortuneTeller
I drive a car with hand controls and a while back, looked into flying
lessons for the handicapped. I never read anything about MSers not
being able to get pilots licenses, but the cost of lessons is
PROHIBITIVE! Since I just spent $31,000 on a new car, an airplane
isn't in my budget now, but flying is really intriguing to me.

[Thomas Young]

I'm a pilot with MS in the U.S. Haven't even tried to get the medical
certificate since my DX several years ago. Balance problems would make me
ineligible even if the MS alone wouldn't. I sure miss flying. By the way,
I still have the license, but it is useless without the medical certificate.

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining
their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis. This would be
especially true if they have any symptoms or problems with balance or
difficulty multitasking and making quick life-and-death decisions because

of

cognitive effects. PwMS would almost certainly have to appeal to the
minister regarding their medical fitness and I doubt whether there would

be

many exceptions. It is not a matter of money for training or being able

to

pass a flight test on a good day.
The United States is much more liberal in their licensing of aircraft and
pilots as evidenced by the many U.S. pilots who would stop at the border
between Alaska and the Yukon to fly from Alaska south following the Alaska
Highway using road maps instead of proper aeronautical charts. This
statement is not third hand but rather based on my personal inspection of
many of these aircraft and pilots. Many of these pilots were helicopter
pilots in Vietnam.
Buying an aircraft from Alaska would guarantee years of headaches and
expanse with Transport Canada as many of the aircraft in Alaska are
maintained or rebuilt by their owners who are not certified aircraft
mechanics keeping very detailed log books of dating from the time of
manufacture (often 30 or 40 years) as required in Canada. I checked into

it

in a lot of detail as I was considering buying a small plane from a friend
of mine who as a state trooper in Alaska and had a small airplane with
tundra tires and a stall kit for landing in taking off on gravel bars

along

remote rivers. If you have never been to mainland Alaska, your first
observation would probably be all the small aircraft in small fields in

the

middle of nowhere. I think the airfield is called Taylor Field near
Anchorage and I believe that it had around 5000 private aircraft sitting
there when I first saw it around 1980.
The following are some of the regulations regarding pilots licenses and
medical examinations in Canada.
Prohibition Regarding Exercise of Privileges
404.06 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no holder of a permit, licence or
rating shall exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating if
(a) one of the following circumstances exists and could impair the

holder's

(i) the holder suffers from an illness, injury or disability,
(ii) the holder is taking a drug, or
(iii) the holder is receiving medical treatment;
(b) the holder has been involved in an aircraft accident that is wholly or
partially the result of any of the circumstances referred to in paragraph
(a);
(c) the holder has entered the thirtieth week of pregnancy, unless the
medical certificate is issued in connection with an air traffic controller
licence, in which case the holder may exercise the privileges of the

permit,

licence or rating until the onset of labour; or
(d) the holder has given birth in the preceding six weeks.
Division IV - MedicalMinister's Assessment
404.11 (1) The Minister shall assess any medical reports submitted

pursuant

to paragraph 404.17(b) to determine whether an applicant for the issuance

or

renewal of a medical certificate meets the medical fitness requirements

set

out in the personnel licensing standards that are necessary for the

issuance

or renewal of the medical certificate
Reconsideration of Assessment
404.12 (1) An applicant for the renewal of a medical certificate who is
assessed by the Minister as not meeting the requirements referred to in
subsection 404.11(1) may, within 30 days after the date that the applicant
receives the notification referred to in subsection 404.11(2),
(a) request the Minister to reconsider the assessment; and
(b) submit additional information to the Minister regarding the medical
fitness of the applicant in support of the request.
--
Larry
rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it
written with voice recognition software

[Chuck Mercer]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 06:09:53 -0400, "Thomas Young"

Post by Thomas Young
By the way,
I still have the license, but it is useless without the medical certificate.

Same as Canada. I still have a licence, but it is invalid without the
medical.

[white.lynx]

In addition to the possible dangers to the pilot and his passengers, there
is dangers to other airplanes and potential crash sites on the ground. When
an aircraft goes missing in Canada, especially in coastal British Columbia,
it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to search for it and
jeopardizes the lives of the searchers. There is a loophole in the
regulations to allow the minister of transport some flexibility, but I can
only see it justifiable in the case of a symptom-free individual.

I quit driving motor vehicles even though I could probably do it most of the
time using hand controls. I know that in a complicated emergency pressure
situation I could not respond quickly enough and I did not want to take the
chance of killing half of someone else's family because of my pride and the
often used "I need my car" excuse. I suspect that there are many people
with multiple sclerosis who should voluntarily quit driving but have not.
In British Columbia, Canada you can be tested on a simulator and be taught
how to use hand controls. The thing that keeps many people from doing this
is that you require a doctor's referral (he is required by law to report you
to motor vehicle branch if he doubts your ability to drive safely), it costs
$300 you have to pay yourself and if you fail, it must be reported to motor
vehicle branch in order to get you off the road. Most people know when they
have crossed the line and become a hazard. They should voluntarily quit
driving, although some are in denial.
--
Larry
rather than building character, adversity tends to reveal it
written with voice recognition software

In most cases in Canada, people would have great difficulty in obtaining
their pilots license if they have multiple sclerosis.

I have retained my motorcycle racing license since my dx. I did check off
the appropriate box in the forms last time I renewed it, and my

application

had no problems.
But flying , I don't know about that. It's way to risky.:)
--
Jim Stinnett
http://moto-rama.com

[Bob Davidson]

Post by white.lynx
In addition to the possible dangers to the pilot and his passengers, there
is dangers to other airplanes and potential crash sites on the ground.

When

Post by white.lynx
an aircraft goes missing in Canada, especially in coastal British Columbia,
it can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to search for it and
jeopardizes the lives of the searchers. There is a loophole in the
regulations to allow the minister of transport some flexibility, but I can
only see it justifiable in the case of a symptom-free individual.
I quit driving motor vehicles even though I could probably do it most of the
time using hand controls. I know that in a complicated emergency pressure
situation I could not respond quickly enough and I did not want to take the
chance of killing half of someone else's family because of my pride and the
often used "I need my car" excuse.

i saw on tv today an older man drove thru a crowd of people, in cali,, it
was reported he may have had a stroke or maybe a heart attack,, the question
is ,when should you relinquish your driving priveledges?,,
how do we determine that time? if this gent had a history of heart
condition, maybe his doctor should have the ability to yank their liscences
when they show ceretain symptoms or threats of stroke or heart attacks?? if
thats what it was.

so when should we decide to stop driving , when it puts others at risk,,
how do we determine how bad our condition must be to stop driving???,
specially with our cognitive symptoms we experience!!!, i have noticed it is
gettin hard to say things at times,, getting the words out,,
bobD

[MsWompa]

Here in the US (WA state) - I had a friend getting her pilot's license. She
was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy. The FAA said
she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was "stable" and
could function w/out the meds.

This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her license -
back on zoloft.

ps this was all pre-9/11


jkl

[Jim Carter]

Post by MsWompa
Here in the US (WA state) - I had a friend getting her pilot's license. She
was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy. The FAA said
she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was "stable" and
could function w/out the meds.
This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her license -
back on zoloft.
ps this was all pre-9/11
jkl

Your friend is asking for big, big trouble. Go to
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp (this is The National
Transportation Board site) and ignore all spaces except the one
labelled "Enter your word string below:" Put the single word "zoloft"
into that space and observe that there are eight hits on the word,
each hit representing an accident, most fatal. Here is just one of
them. This is the synopsis, full narrative is available at the NTSB
site.

Please point your friend to this site and have her discontinue either
the zoloft or flying. Please.

"NTSB Identification: CHI01LA149. The docket is stored on NTSB
microfiche number DMS.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, May 27, 2001 in Kankakee, IL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/16/03
Aircraft: Geertz Zenith CH 200, registration: N77VZ
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

The airplane was destroyed on impact with terrain. The pilot was
fatally injured.

A witness stated, "I watched it start a bank turn to the left and then
nosed straight down. There were no other movements of the aircraft
after it nosed down. It did not spin while going down. ... I could not
tell if the engine was running ... nor did I notice the propeller. It
appeared to me that there was no control of the aircraft after the
left bank."

The private pilot had 88.9 hours of total flight time and held a third
class medical certificate. The pilot listed he used Zoloft and noted
no "Mental disorders of any sort ... " on the application for that
medical certificate.
Extracts from the pilot's personal medical records showed,
"...self-discontinued Zoloft 2 weeks ago because of conflict with FAA
licensing - patient feels fine off of it. ... An entry approximately 6
weeks before the accident indicates "...occasional problem staying
asleep - has taken Ambien in past ... no problem with concentration
... meds - Zoloft 50 mg per day, approximately 3 days per week ..."

Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) reviewed that application and
cautioned the pilot, "Because of your history of anxiety and sleep
disturbance, operation of aircraft is prohibited at any time new
symptoms or adverse changes occur or any time medication and/or
treatment is required."

CAMI's Final Forensic Toxicology Accident Report stated, "SERTRALINE
detected in Liver 0.283 (ug/ml, ug/g),DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in
Liver, and DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Blood." Desmethylsertraline
is the predominant metabolite of the antidepressant sertraline,
Zoloft. Sertraline, Zoloft is [a] SSRI antidepressant. ...

***Warnings - may impair mental and/or physical ability required for
the performance of potentially hazardous tasks (e.g.,driving,
operating heavy machinery).***

No pre-impact anomalies were found with the airplane.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The loss of control on initial climbout for undetermined reasons.

Full narrative available"

[Mona]

Not much worse than an alchoholic who sobers up just to get their drivers
liscence renewed

Post by Jim Carter

Post by MsWompa
Here in the US (WA state) - I had a friend getting her pilot's license.

She

Post by Jim Carter

Post by MsWompa
was on Zoloft for depression but otherwise completely healthy. The FAA said
she had to go off the Zoloft and get a psych note saying she was "stable" and
could function w/out the meds.
This totally sucked for her but she did it and as soon as she got her license -
back on zoloft.
ps this was all pre-9/11
jkl

Your friend is asking for big, big trouble. Go to
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp (this is The National
Transportation Board site) and ignore all spaces except the one
labelled "Enter your word string below:" Put the single word "zoloft"
into that space and observe that there are eight hits on the word,
each hit representing an accident, most fatal. Here is just one of
them. This is the synopsis, full narrative is available at the NTSB
site.
Please point your friend to this site and have her discontinue either
the zoloft or flying. Please.
"NTSB Identification: CHI01LA149. The docket is stored on NTSB
microfiche number DMS.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, May 27, 2001 in Kankakee, IL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 1/16/03
Aircraft: Geertz Zenith CH 200, registration: N77VZ
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
The airplane was destroyed on impact with terrain. The pilot was
fatally injured.
A witness stated, "I watched it start a bank turn to the left and then
nosed straight down. There were no other movements of the aircraft
after it nosed down. It did not spin while going down. ... I could not
tell if the engine was running ... nor did I notice the propeller. It
appeared to me that there was no control of the aircraft after the
left bank."
The private pilot had 88.9 hours of total flight time and held a third
class medical certificate. The pilot listed he used Zoloft and noted
no "Mental disorders of any sort ... " on the application for that
medical certificate.
Extracts from the pilot's personal medical records showed,
"...self-discontinued Zoloft 2 weeks ago because of conflict with FAA
licensing - patient feels fine off of it. ... An entry approximately 6
weeks before the accident indicates "...occasional problem staying
asleep - has taken Ambien in past ... no problem with concentration
... meds - Zoloft 50 mg per day, approximately 3 days per week ..."
Civil Aeromedical Institute (CAMI) reviewed that application and
cautioned the pilot, "Because of your history of anxiety and sleep
disturbance, operation of aircraft is prohibited at any time new
symptoms or adverse changes occur or any time medication and/or
treatment is required."
CAMI's Final Forensic Toxicology Accident Report stated, "SERTRALINE
detected in Liver 0.283 (ug/ml, ug/g),DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in
Liver, and DESMETHYLSERTRALINE detected in Blood." Desmethylsertraline
is the predominant metabolite of the antidepressant sertraline,
Zoloft. Sertraline, Zoloft is [a] SSRI antidepressant. ...
***Warnings - may impair mental and/or physical ability required for
the performance of potentially hazardous tasks (e.g.,driving,
operating heavy machinery).***
No pre-impact anomalies were found with the airplane.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
The loss of control on initial climbout for undetermined reasons.
Full narrative available"

[Mona]

it diminished my driving abilities,,last accident (there were 3 or 4) i
totaled 2 cars..i stopped driving then.

To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?)

than

depressed b/c she can't take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer.
How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident. If that was

the

case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI's in an a lot more accidents
driving their cars.
jkl

[Tom Harkness]

On 18 Jul 2003 02:19:01 GMT, ***@aol.comnothanks (MsWompa) wrote:

}To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?) than
}depressed b/c she can't take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer.
}
}How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident. If that was the
}case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI's in an a lot more accidents
}driving their cars.

If an aircraft is functioning properly then the cause of the accident must
be the pilot. If the pilot is taking a drug that interferes with his
performance then one can quite easily link the drug with the accident.

As a Naval Aviator, this tells me just how irresponsible pilots can be. And
who says that a lot of the accidents on our highways are not caused by
people on OTC or prescription drugs who are disregarding the warning labels
on the packages?

The FAA does not ground a pilot without cause or on a whim.

According to the 53rd edition of the Physicians' Desk Reference (PDR),
ZOLOFT is used for treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder,
and panic disorder. Following are the definitions as defined in the PDR.
None are the characteristics of a person who must be able to make split
second decisions.

"Depression...A major depressive episode implies a prominent and relatively
persistent depressed or dysphoric mood that usually interferes with daily
functioning (nearly every day for at least 2 weeks)...."

"Obsessive-compulsive disorder is characterized by recurrent and persistent
ideas, thoughts, impulses, or images (obsessions) that are ego-dystomic
and/or repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors (compulsion) that
are recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable...."

"Panic disorder...a discrete period of intense fear or discomfort in which
four (or more) of the following symptoms develop abruptly and reach a peak
within 10 minutes; (1) palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart
rate; (2) sweating; (3) trembling or shaking; (4) sensations of shortness of
breath or smothering; (5) feeling of choking; (6) chest pain or discomfort;
(7) nausea or abdominal distress; (8) feeling dizzy, unsteady, lightheaded,
or faint; (9) derealization (feelings of unreality) or depersonalization
(being unattached from oneself); (10) fear of losing control; (11) fear of
dying; (12) paresthesias (numbness or tingling sensations); (13) chills or
hot flushes...."

[Bob Davidson]

what about american pilots flying high!!, doing amphetamines to be alert!!!
this is a drug and it affects the ability to function while flying,,
especially in combat,

evidence of this is our 4 canadian soldiers blown away by an american pilot
high on dope!!! in his doped up state he was unable to make proper descision
or identify or obey the central commands orders.

now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! this is
common american practice of drugging their pilots in the airforce.

now i know why so many choppers go down, from? drugged up americans
fighting the war on drugs and terrorism while stoned on uppers!!!!

bobD

Post by Tom Harkness
}To me, I would rather see my friend on zoloft and flying her sessna (sp?) than
}depressed b/c she can't take zoloft just to be a recreational flyer.
}
}How the heck can you link zoloft with an airplane accident. If that was the
}case you would see a 2Million who take SSRI's in an a lot more accidents
}driving their cars.
If an aircraft is functioning properly then the cause of the accident must
be the pilot. If the pilot is taking a drug that interferes with his
performance then one can quite easily link the drug with the accident.
As a Naval Aviator, this tells me just how irresponsible pilots can be.

And

Post by Tom Harkness
who says that a lot of the accidents on our highways are not caused by
people on OTC or prescription drugs who are disregarding the warning labels
on the packages?
The FAA does not ground a pilot without cause or on a whim.
According to the 53rd edition of the Physicians' Desk Reference (PDR),
ZOLOFT is used for treatment of depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder,
and panic disorder. Following are the definitions as defined in the PDR.
None are the characteristics of a person who must be able to make split
second decisions.
"Depression...A major depressive episode implies a prominent and relatively
persistent depressed or dysphoric mood that usually interferes with daily
functioning (nearly every day for at least 2 weeks)...."
"Obsessive-compulsive disorder is characterized by recurrent and persistent
ideas, thoughts, impulses, or images (obsessions) that are ego-dystomic
and/or repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors (compulsion) that
are recognized by the person as excessive or unreasonable...."
"Panic disorder...a discrete period of intense fear or discomfort in which
four (or more) of the following symptoms develop abruptly and reach a peak
within 10 minutes; (1) palpitations, pounding heart, or accelerated heart
rate; (2) sweating; (3) trembling or shaking; (4) sensations of shortness of
breath or smothering; (5) feeling of choking; (6) chest pain or discomfort;
(7) nausea or abdominal distress; (8) feeling dizzy, unsteady,

lightheaded,

Post by Tom Harkness
or faint; (9) derealization (feelings of unreality) or depersonalization
(being unattached from oneself); (10) fear of losing control; (11) fear of
dying; (12) paresthesias (numbness or tingling sensations); (13) chills or
hot flushes...."

[Tom Harkness]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <***@shaw.ca> wrote:

}now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!! this is
}common american practice of drugging their pilots in the airforce.

Take it up with the Air Force. I am Navy and feel the practice is
irresponsible.

[Michael]

Post by Tom Harkness
}now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!
this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the
airforce.
Take it up with the Air Force. I am Navy and feel the practice is
irresponsible.

"Irresponsible"?

How about "criminally insane"?

((U))
M

[Tom Harkness]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:18:36 -0700, "Michael" <***@island.net> wrote:

}In <news:***@free.teranews.com>,
}Tom Harkness said:
}
}> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:03:50 GMT, "Bob Davidson" <***@shaw.ca>
}> wrote:
}>
}> }now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!
}> this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the
}> airforce.
}>
}> Take it up with the Air Force. I am Navy and feel the practice is
}> irresponsible.
}
}"Irresponsible"?
}
}How about "criminally insane"?
}
}((U))
} M
}

Take it up with the Air Force legal department. Why am I suddenly the
whipping boy for things over which you ought to know I have no control, did
not countenance, cannot change, was not present for and am not responsible
for?

I think one of you is taking bad drugs. Or else is not taking his good
drugs. He says, "ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!" then
goes on to correctly state it is the Air Force. Notice how quickly we go
from ALL fighter pilots to just Air Force fighter pilots.

Now you chime in with your two cents of legalese. ("Insane" is a legal, not
medical, term.) What do you expect me say?

Why not use your energy to prevent another tragedy from occurring rather
than to rehash old tragedies that cannot be undone? If you cannot
contribute to this purpose in a meaningful way then at least start a new
message chain for your grievances where you can be ignored and are not
detracting from the efforts of the pilots and others here who are trying to
prevent another tragedy. Is this too much to ask of you?

I will return to base in another few minutes. Pat yourselves on your backs
for your efforts this day. You have not helped one bit, but you have added
considerable obfuscation in the message chain for those who are trying to
help.

[Michael]

Post by Tom Harkness
}
}>
}> }now we find out ALL american fighter pilots fly high on dope!!!!
}> this is }common american practice of drugging their pilots in the
}> airforce.
}>
}> Take it up with the Air Force. I am Navy and feel the practice is
}> irresponsible.
}
}"Irresponsible"?
}
}How about "criminally insane"?
}
}((U))
} M
}
Take it up with the Air Force legal department. Why am I suddenly the
whipping boy for things over which you ought to know I have no
control, did not countenance, cannot change, was not present for and
am not responsible for?

Easy, Tom... I was commenting on a common Air Force practice, not on you!
:-)

((U))
M

[Bob Davidson]

help.

tom ,the point i am trying to make is that if they? are going to ban people
with ms from flying cause we take medications, then ban all american pilots
in ANY sevice that is FORCED to take uppers to fly 134 million dollar jets
that bomb people.i dont say canadian pilots cause we dont have a common
proctice of forcing our pilots to take uppers or not get the flight time!!!

but hey thanks for pointing out my inconsistencies, and i did pat myself on
the back because eveytime i try and discuss what the usa is doing to the
world someone corrects my grammar!! but i did get out the fact that there
are pilots on drugs flying at mach 2 with big bombs in their holding bay, so
whay up with them puttin pressure on msers who fly? t

i did make some spelling mistakes buts thats how itype,
also i did not get anything right, after i said all pilots, i just said
airforce,, thats who flies planes,, i was not differentiating between any of
your forces pilots as i did not know it was only the airforce pilots, high
on crack

how do you know the navy dudes aint taking Da shizznit too?

bringing up the past is what is called -judicial precedent,, or when making
an arguement, you back it up with facts,, like your pilots were on hardcore
drugs when they murdered our soldiers who were in a KNOWN training area,,
they fucked up!!!

i also know john walters is a liar cause i have it on record. it is a fact
he lied,, and that the bush oilicies are based on lies,,

since you think i should pat myself on the back for something i was not
intending in what i said,, i just now said it, and will pat myself now.

bobD

[liza]

How do; Regulations pilots lic etc. 404.06 ( 1 ) sub sect ( 3 ) ( a ) the
words " could impair " and " illness " are key words, and I wonder to how
many other jobs and what type, this could apply to in the case of the ms

The following are some of the regulations regarding pilots licenses and
medical examinations in Canada.
Prohibition Regarding Exercise of Privileges
404.06 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no holder of a permit, licence or
rating shall exercise the privileges of the permit, licence or rating if
(a) one of the following circumstances exists and could impair the

holder's

(i) the holder suffers from an illness, injury or disability,

--